🌈 LGBT+ OCs discussion thread

5inthemorning Alrighty, thank you so much for your feedback! I just wanted to make sure I was making good character choices. It's good to hear I'm on the right track :)

amers-nd

Hey! I think if you projected onto the character at one point in time, that's going to colour how you handle them, and you should be wary of whether you're representing the trans experience or your own experience. It's important to remember that trans men don't just wear binders for themselves, but because society judges and misgenders them if they don't. Even outside of dysphoria, a lot of trans men are going to care about it just so they don't have to deal with people treating them like the wrong gender in public.

More than that though, I'd just ask why it would come up that much? There's no need to focus on whether your character is wearing a binder unless it's really, really relevant to a specific moment in their story. In terms of art, I wouldn't draw a trans man with obvious curves or anything anyway. You don't want to tell trans stories for trans people, and being trans should never be the only thing a character is, so it really shouldn't matter too much. I would just not focus on it, to be honest!

mellostopheles 

I understand this, and I’m not implying that he doesn’t care about whether he passes or not in public. My main concern in this case is the restrictions a binder may cause to him in the stressful position he is in at the height of the story, where comfort in general is not very common. Again, the fact that he’s trans comes with no intention of moving the story forward, that’s just a part of who he is and I want to be able to depict it in a respectful manner without neglecting the realism of the situation he’s living in. 

And I don’t want it to seem like this is something I’m intentionally focusing on, of course not. My goal isn’t to tell a story about trans people for trans people; it’s not my place to do so, and I understand this. And it really doesn’t matter within the story at all. I just want to be doing his character building correctly, regardless of whether or not it is prevalent within the important parts of the story he is helping to tell.

Also, I’ve never drawn a trans man with obvious curves and I don’t plan to ever do so. I respect trans men and the struggles that some of them face in order to pass. I would never even consider depicting Reid in such a way, he’s simply a human character and I want to represent him as such. I reeeally want to stress the fact that I am not focusing on his being trans at all, it’s just a tiny thing that I wanted to bring up so I could get help making it be the best and most respectful as I can make it.

Thank you for your feedback! I really appreciate hearing from you.

amers-nd

I think if you're just worried about background character building then you're probably good! Arguably though, I'd say being stressed out like that might make someone more likely to wear a binder more often, to at least have that stability in how they look and how people see them. It does come down to dysphoria and stuff, but I think if your character is a binary trans man, it's a lot more likely that he would prefer to wear a binder than not in day to day life. Though, if he's, like, a flat-chested trans dude then he's probably not gonna worry as much and could just wear baggy clothing. So it depends on that.

mellostopheles

Alright! Thank you again for your help, I’ll make sure to keep all this in mind ^^

One thing I can find annoying is people assuming Valentina is gay because he’s feminine (I can see people viewing him as feminine, understandable) but what really annoys me is that some of my friends keep calling him gay and shipping him with my other male characters and like. I told you just because he’s feminine he’s not gay. I don’t like it when people call my gay characters straight, and it’s the same in reverse. Valentina is like, my only non lgbt character there’s a plethora of other children i have you can scream gay at just not,, him

amers-nd mellostopheles I know this is a really complicated subject but also I always like... feel pretty torn up over the insistence I see Everywhere that it's transphobic and inconsiderate to draw trans men with curves? I get there's definitely ways to go about it Weirdly (remember rcdart captain america HAHA) and cis people especially need to be extra careful with how they depict trans bodies. but like... I dunno, some of us (maybe a lot of us) have curves, and we all have varying feelings about them I know (I dont particularly like, love that I have them lol). but if anything I feel grosser and worse when I always see people talking about how it's offensive to draw trans men as anything other than looking exactly like cis men no matter what.

I know a lot of us hate attention being drawn to the physical attributes of our transness, but it just kinda sucks that it's permeated into this implication that "visibly" trans bodies (and to be fair cis men can be curvy too) are shameful and offensive, when really getting to depict trans men having diverse physical realities (like we do irl!) helped a huge amount with making peace with my identity and coming into myself. idk. i wish there was more support for trans people being forgiving with the bodies they have and what they can make of them, rather than this very strict idealizing of an imagined perfect western standard cis male body. but that's a trans perspective and obviously i think it's not something cis people are really equipped to explore in depth in their work.

as for the binder question it varies a lot from person to person! i only bind at work and i never did when i was at school (even when i'd started hrt), cuz i knew it wouldnt help me pass at all so i didn't really see a point - binding doesn't alleviate dysphoria for me in and of itself at all... if anything it almost just reminds me of my big awkward chest more than not binding would. it can be kind of circumstantial. i think mello has a really important point about being careful about how your past projection plays in though, if he's inspired by your own experiences but you realized you weren't actually trans. i know lots of trans men who bind and lots who don't though, no matter how many medical steps they've taken or not. i wouldn't take any one viewpoint as word of law, none of us can really speak on how all trans men feel - just make sure to not use that to totally discount any opinions that don't work for you!

physics

I think the thing is, unless we're talking hyper-realism style, everything you highlight in your art style is a choice. Drawing trans men curvier than cis men just others them. Also, like... unless you're wearing very tight, form-fitting clothing, or naked, then trans men are probably not gonna look especially curvy. A little more than cis men, but not enough to comment on most of the time, because the shape of your clothes makes it unremarkable. And the whole trend of drawing trans men half naked or in tight clothes to "show off" how trans they are always comes off as fetishy. I remember when the rcdart thing blew up and a bunch of people said it was great and empowering because trans men should embrace their curves!! ... but it was clearly just designed for fetishists to get off to. So I never trust that reasoning, a lot of the time it just ignores context.

Generally speaking, I think what you should do as a cis person and what you can do as a trans person are very different. I would absolutely never advise cis people to other trans people and I would not trust cis people to get into the details of trans people either hating or embracing their bodies. It's just not their business to get too deep into. For cis people, I think always err on the side of caution. Every cis portrayal of trans men embracing their bodies I've seen has been very obviously made for fetish reasons, and completely tone deaf as well.

So basically what I’m hearing is that I shouldn’t have trans characters at all, because cis people fetishize them since they haven’t experienced dysphoria for themselves? This hurts me because I don’t want to be that person who only has cis characters because they’re not trans. Only has white characters because they’re not a POC. Only has Jewish characters because they are Jewish and nothing else. I need info, insight, and recs from people who have the right experience with what I’m writing. I don’t want to have no trans characters just because I’m not trans. I am so compelled to be inclusive enough in my story that I am actively searching for the right resources to write a realistic and appropriate trans character. Isn’t that enough to prove that I’m not doing it for the ‘uwu’s or fetishes?

I would never write a story based around a gender, racial, or religious experience that is not mine. The thought is sickening to me. I just want characters that live their lives and react to the plot points surrounding them. Sorry, that’s all.

amers-nd no, thats not the case! it isn't what mellostopheles was saying either. there's nothing wrong with cis people having trans characters, and i think most trans people would agree it's great for cis people to have trans characters and normalize that kind of diversity. if people could only write characters that are the exact same as themselves, that wouldn't be any good. as far as my reading comprehension goes, mello is just expressing the pretty common sentiment that people should write stories featuring minorities and people different than themselves, but they shouldn't focus too specifically on stories *about* those experiences. you seem to understand that since you mentioned it in your post. it's a line you have to toe, and i think you have your heart in the right place for it since you seem very concerned about being conscientious.

like, im not jewish. i can write stories about jewish characters, even jewish characters whos judaism is important to their character- since people's identities obviously affect their experiences. but i wouldn't write a story *about* judaism, and focusing on how these characters navigate their relationship with it, etc, etc. it's just not something i could intimately understand, no matter how much research i could do. further than that, it would feel intrusive and commodifying to make my work all about someone else's experiences, and jewish creators should have their own work promoted - they can tell those stories themselves. but that doesnt mean people can't write characters with different realities than the authors own. 

and obviously people physically *can* write whatever they want, since i know people get very up in arms about this type of opinion and think its censorship or whatever - it's not about that, it's about being conscientious of people who have been oppressed for their identities - it wouldn't feel right to me to gain praise and attention for a story ***about*** an identity when people who actually are that identity have been ridiculed and silenced for it.

and mellostopheles re: your response to me, yeah! i wasn't talking about super cartoony shapey styles. obviously people need to be careful there... i tend to only draw with subtler more realistic variations in proportions so that was my frame of reference. (also i def agree trans and cis people should handle the situation differently, which is what i was talking about in my post)

and as to Albinistic : i wouldnt say it's always the case that trans dudes are curvier than cis dudes, or as curvy as cis women, etc. there's a lot of variation in people obviously, and some cis men might be curvier than cis women even, just due to natural human variation. really im only asking for more realistic variation, rather than the idea that trans characters need to be drawn in a very narrow window of bodytypes that doesn't actually capture all of our real life variety (though some men absolutely fall into that window too).

physics mellostopheles Albinistic Yeah, I really apologize about all of this! I think I have been reading way too hard into things. I appreciate the incredibly thoughtful responses everyone has given me; this topic has always been a little tough for me to deal with, because I don't accidentally want to do/say the wrong thing. This is the first time I've really heard solid feedback about this in my characters from other people. 

I think that in trying to write my responses and organize my thoughts in the best way possible, my mind got a little mixed and jumbled, and forgot what was going on ;; again, it was really useful to get this info from everyone! Thank you so much, I'll definitely keep everything you said in mind (last night I decided that I'll begin to go back and revise my characters and my story, to make sure everything is appropriate and acceptable, so this was a good time to have this conversation). I'll make sure to be much more careful and thoughtful regarding my trans (and LGBT+ as a whole) characters in the future.

Albinistic
Excluding super realistic art styles (which most people on this site don't use anyway), like I said, no... trans men aren't gonna look curvier than cis men, really? Not in everyday life, anyway, cause masculine and even most gender neutral clothing kind of washes curves away for the most part. In just a general cartoony style, the features aren't defined enough for that slight difference to matter, and you'd only focus on it for... reasons I don't especially trust, and I know plenty of other trans people don't trust, either. Suggesting you should draw people "more trans" implies that all trans people look alike, and in this case implies that all trans men look more like women than not, when I think the majority of trans men look a lot more like cis men than not? Yeah, if you're naked, then you're gonna be able to tell, but trans people on the street who've started transitioning aren't super obviously trans most of the time.
I won't call you cis if you're nb or have a complex relationship with your gender or anything else in that vague area! But it's not an offensive term, for sure, it just means "not trans". Like, there's nothing offensive about the word cis.

amers-nd
It's pretty much like physics said, there's a difference between telling a story about a trans character (or any other minority) and telling the story of being trans. Tell stories about other people, but don't tell other people's stories, basically! I don't think it sounds like you're really doing anything wrong with your character, just ironing out the finer details. This is more stuff to keep in the back of your head than, like, intense critique or anything! I'm sure you'll do a good job with it if you're trying to be thoughtful about how you handle things.