Ariicchi Just to clarify, the artist in question (Sno-berry) had nothing to do with the transaction from what I've gathered, someone step in here if I'm misreading anywhere xD. She was charged back for all of this happening in the Aminos/Discord. The character in question sounds like it was being sold secondhand so it doesn't sound like it was her job to do...well anything.
Mother of god I give up if I've gotten your wrong name this time LOL
*ETA more* Snoberry largely doesn't seem to play a roll in any of this...just that it's their art groups and they got charged back.
Mori vs Pillow and Third Unnamed
And then Mori vs Mods
All evidence is in this folder.
her media:
https://sno-berry.deviantart.com
Sno-berry#1997
On April 24, 2018, I purchased two adoptables from Snoberry- one for me and one as a voucher for someone else. (I was to receive art as the exchange)
The same day, I was collaborating with another member of the Snoberry Amino Community to 'co-own' a character. Before I made the 3rd purchase, I wanted to make sure that the person I'd co-own with liked the design that I'd picked out>(because why would I buy a design that we'd share, that they didn't like) I also asked if we'd be splitting the price, but that question was obviously avoided. (and I made the mistake of not pursuing the answer)
The same day, I lost possession of my phone and was unable to send or receive messages.
The next day, when I was able to check my messages, I was presented with 6, 5 and 4 in the evidence folder (read it in that order because it didn't save in chronological order oops)
I was confused because, from my understanding, I hadn't claimed to have bought anything. The image I had sent to see if Pillow, the person I would co-own with, had been watermarked quite obviously. On top of that, they said I was [supposed] to buy it, which implies that I'd be paying for it alone and they'd be getting a free character (which isn't co-owning, it's me gifting it to them.)
Though that wasn't the bulk of the issue. I also received a discord message from the person I'd be buying the design from threatening to have me ban from the amino and discord group for theft and told to apologize to both Pillow and them. This is Image 1.
So this would imply that Pillow took the little window of time that I wasn't there to run off and tell as many people as she could that I had stolen something- which not only sets an awful image for her, but for the community since they're already seen as snobs, but now manipulators and 'tattle-tails' (for lack of a better word)
So at this point, I've been back for about 20 minutes and already have seen 2 people's messages about saying I stole something. Next is one of the admins, who I think was a curator, but I'm not sure. They say that (from what they've seen) that I claimed a sno-berry that wasn't mine. This doesn't bother me too much because that's a curator's job to see what's going on. The evidence for this is 3 and 2, in that order.
They say that Pillow provided proof that I'd claimed and stolen it. As you see from one of the screenshots, a message was deleted. I can't remember what it said, but that's fishy. What enraged me most about this conversation was that they said "Either way, It happened."
Here's what I take from that:
They automatically believed the first person's story, not even considering mine.
They had no intent to look into the situation and figure out what really happened.
Then said: "Make sure it doesn't happen again."
At this point, I think: make sure I don't get framed/lied on?
Not only is that unprofessional but it proved to me that all of sno-berry's 'people' were all within the same selfish mindset and that they picked favorites.
(which is my own opinion after going into the community with the intent on proving to people that they were in fact not snobs and actually nice, kind people)
After this, I leave the community as I want no part in these people anymore. Which brings me to the statement. I bought 2 sno-berry designs. One for me, and one for someone else, whose name I can't remember- though I think it was Jayla.
The exchange would be that I buy them the adopt, and they draw one of my characters. Cool, but now I had no way to claim my piece of the art and was now stuck with an adopt that I didn't want.
My first thought was to message sno-berry and see what I could do, but from the previous notes that I sent her via dA, she doesn't actively check/answer. So I had no way to contact sno-berry as I was no longer in the group to direct message her, and I didn't have her email. Which only left one option for me, which was to submit a refund through PayPal.
I sent the refund with a note that said this:
I purchased an item then was basically scammed. I can't keep my character because supposedly it was in a trade- that was never completed. I was accused of theft when I quite clearly was showing the character to the person I was planning on CO OWNING with. The image was watermarked and it was clear that I had no yet purchased the item. Nor was I claiming that the item was already mine. Because of this, I want all of my characters and money back from this community. If you wont give me a refund, then I want full rights to the character.
Which wasn't the nicest way I could've approached her, but I was very upset (which was still no excuse to have been hostile)
I got a reply 15 minutes later saying this:
You have forced a charge back, and will be banned from purchasing anything from me ever again. This is wrong, the way you are charging back is not right in any way. you bought a product and paid for it, the drama part of this situation is not my problem.I will refund you for this character, and will be putting it back up for sale. You could of messaged me on amino/ or through my email first, but instead you decided to go straight to charging me back, which makes you look very guilty, and because of that I do not want you part of my designs/community.Goodbye.
If she had actually been on the community, seeing what had happened, I wouldn't have had to charge back and there would have been no issue. My word for a better future is to have her actually talk with her admin team before they launch at someone in an unprofessional way. I care nothing about being ban or put of her 'ban-list' because I know that it's only a petty gesture to 'irk' me and keep me from commissioning other artists. Her ban-list is here. My email is peanutbuttercchips and my real name is presented though I don't really want my actual name there- but I won't cause another issue. It isn't that serious.
I know that the sno-berry community already had a bad image (at least what I heard) and me joining was to honestly prove people that popular artists like Sno-Berry aren't snobbish and rude. But this was ridiculous.
What I'm trying to say is, be careful with sno-berry, her community, and her service as it isn't professional or something anyone should be around.
Also, the case was ruled in my favor and I did receive a refund for the character that I didn't want. I still have one, that I don't plan on refunding because I have no need to. I like sno-berry's art so unless she personally wants the character back (and will provide refund), the character is mine.
Thank you for reading.
(i tried to be as un-biased as possible)
UPDATE: 5-5-18
I have retrieved the screenshots between my messenger and Jayla (the person who was going to claim the sno-berry that I refunded)
Evidence is here
(it's in a zip file i think, so you'll need to unzip it to see the contents)
UPDATE: 5-8-18
This is a rant video on Sno-Berry using some of the info I provided in this post.
video credits to teapup
I’m talking about the person who along aside Pillow claimed Mori was trying to steal the OC. I did make a mistake by saying artist when I meant original owner. I’m kinda focused on the cry of character theft over the other part of this PSA. I’m focused on the parts of this PSA with most presented evidence.
Personally, I wanna know why mori was called a thief and why people are denying it even happened when the proof is right there. Because I send watermarked photos of adoptables I find cute to my friend all the time and they show me ones. And sometimes if they or me are like “wow I love them I need them” we buy them for each other. We aren’t claiming ownership over the watermarked image, we are just showing them to each other. And I haven’t seen anywhere that Mori claimed ownership. Im siding with Mori in this case that they were treated rather unfairly by the admins.
AsylumPatient my username has too many “iii”s for the eyes to handle.
Ariicchi The I's and the C's XD All the doubles. I edited 3 times just to get the proper tag and then found you didn't have a double I at the end of your name lol
This is kind of why I say it seemed like all of this went realllllyyy hastily by. This was...2 days? 3? The only thing I could even think from all of that (and this is a stretch to be fair) is that Pillow assumed that Mori bought it (Screenshot 5 kind of shows this) because she was asking about co-owning before and shared a design before asking about splitting costs (which could be for art for the design, for instance). Of course at that point Pillow likely showed it off, the original owner contacts her and says that it hasn't been paid for, she says that Mori was trying to get her to co-own, it blows up from there.
As said before that's a stretch but from the briefest of conversation, that's all I could gather as where a potential theft-accusation could have come from. Especially since Fox has said a few times that largely that's all the conversation. If Pillow was using her brief bit of conversation with Mori as evidence...I mean it's weak but that's all we have to go on. Of course I don't think it was intentionally malicious, it just seems like it was misunderstood and the 24 hour period of no contact likely didn't help. IE You're accused of theft and suddenly dead silent. It doesn't read well no matter who reads it.
Aye just....like if I were to go through this World War Z style xD (If 9 people agree, the 10th is obligated to disagree and investigate) that's the only way I could piece together an accusation of theft from what we have here.
Sno-Berry removed me from her ban list and apologized for the misunderstanding. I'm probably going to keep this page up just to warn people what the COMMUNITY has in store. That being said, sno-berry herself wasn't the main issue until she put my full name of the ban list (which is a completely difference story). I agree that a decent admin wouldn't just agree with that the accuser says. Which definitely gives of favorite picking vibes. From what has gone on, it's over for the most part. I don't think I'll be rejoining the Sno-Berry amino (which also has some guideline issues that I'll take up with Team Amino later) but that's just my personal preference and what I think would be best for everyone.
From the screenshot fox sent, Pillow's one worded answered would've been the first flag to leading me to dig deeper into the situation. But "either way it happened", right?
Ariicchi I did listen to Moris side.and they were not accused of theft by myself. I posted my pov of the conversation and exactly what i meant by what i was saying, if you still believe that i was not listening to them and/or accusing them of theft, then i dont know what to say other than please read my post again. They completely skewed the conversation and what I said out of context. I am the person in that conversation. I never once said that they were a thief or called them on theft at all. Please tell me where you see thar in the conversation I had with them. I only said that they had not paid for a sno yet and that pillow was claiming it by posting a proof image, and again- that the seller felt they were claiming it by letting pillow claim it. I was passing a message along from the seller because the seller was out of hand and threatening them. I at no point said that it was them claiming it, i said what the seller had said to me. "Yes but the person you were co owning to posted it with proof, so it was felt that you were claiming ownership though you hadnt paid" That was from the seller and why they thought so.
Pillow never said anything to anyone but mori and the person selling the design. They did not tell anyone else that mori was a theif or anything and we had no reports of mori being called a theft so they WERE NOT as they stated in the post, being framed by pillow or anything. Pillow did not go out of their way to tell people these things. Those two were the only ones who said that the design was stolen. Staff nor sno berry ever said such. And we dont blindly accept anything. We look very deeply into issues that are BROUGHT to us and that we see. But mori had not allowed us to do so, as I keep repeating- they never said anything about the issue, and they left the conversation with me after saying "This is fucking stupid"
@foxbean I'm going to tell you why me not letting you investigate was a lie. I offered to send you screenshots of what actually happened between me and Pillow you replied with "either way it happened. make sure it doesn't happen again"
From my point of view, that's not only you not interested in anyone else's side but you accusing me. Why I say that? What does Make sure it doesn't happen again' mean? Make sure I don't co own with anyone? make sure I don't buy anything? make sure i don't interact with others? What exactly were you trying to say when you sent that- because that statement is a conversation end. I don't know why you insist that I didn't try and get help because I OFFERED the screenshots. Why would I want to get more help from an admin when they say things like that? it's unprofessional and rude.
mori there was not an investigation at all in question for the issue between pillow and you. Im talking about the thing with the overcharge.
The reason there was not going to be an investigation on the thing with pillow and you and the other person is because you were not accused of by theft or thought of as a thief by staff. Not once was that brought up at all. It wasnt in question, at all. Sitting here and claiming I called you a theif and didnt properly investigate it is a lie because that was NEVER even a question, and I never did so. I even told you when we messaged that I was only passing along what the seller had said and exactly what I meant.
Since most of you seem to think that me saying "either way it happened" and "don't let it happen again" was me telling rhem off or calling them a theif, i will post again *my point of view of what I said*. I told them basically it happened- to say that it was already put into place that the person no longer trusted them and didnt want to go through with the sale. And that they shouldnt let it happen again because they should instead make sure they know what they are getting into with co owns and set the rules down, and let people know they are thinking on it and not buying right away. To be careful with these things. The reason it came off so abrupt is because i was in a rush at the time and was the only staff online to be able to deal with it at the moment.
Edit: Also, at no point was I taking sides on anything. *I* am the one who asked sno-berry to remove them from the ban-list, and explained that the whole situation seems to be some big misunderstanding and issues with miscommunication. The person who threatened to get them banned and such was put on suspension for kicking them from discord.If i was taking sides I would not have done these things. And the fact that people believe I am "showing favorites" when I have done these things is unfair.
@Foxbean So Pillow thought it was bought and claimed to co-own it, the Third Unnamed who originally owned it got nervous and didn't want to sell it anymore because of it, Mori was never accused of theft by yourself or other staff (and if it came across that way, it was unintentional). *ETA* And the one who did was suspended because it wasn't right/fair/etc
The whole 'don't let it happen again' was largely a warning to make herself clearer to avoid situations like this in the future (although xD from all of this, I'd ask that you not do things when in a rush cause it didn't come across this way to most people), NOT that she was stealing
Is that basically the summary of all of this?
AsylumPatient Yes, that is a summary of all of it, and I believe I apologized to Mori for rushing and told them I didnt mean to offend in a message, but even if I did or didnt or it was percieved that way. I am sorry for sounding so abrupt and rushing it rather than sitting to thoroughly talk about it. It isnt something that normally happens but I was actually late for work (which hasn't ever happened to me before) and it was stressing me out just leaving it. I never called Mori a thief, if it did come out to be percieved that way it was 100% unintentional.
Believe me, I have a huge pride in my moderating, its one of the only things I enjoy regardless of how much stress it causes because I love to help others. We very rarely have anyone have an issue that does not get resolved. If a staff member does something bad, they are given consequences just like any other member. If someone brings an issue that has more than one side (we have had problem booths with atleast 6 poeple before) everyone gets a chance to give their side and I myself make sure of it.
That this happened is in my honest opinion, a huge misunderstanding and miscommunication issue. Which is why I asked sno to take them off the ban list and tried to get that message across to them that we as staff never once knew about the issue with jayla, and that they were not being accused of theft, only that the trade had been pulled back because the seller was freaking out and nervous about potential theft.
However you may think of it, the phrase "don't let it happen again" placed blame on Mori as if she did something wrong, and stating "either way it happened" shows you really don't care what actually happened. Because clearly it didn't happen in the way you assumed. Pillow prematurely felt they had ownership of character that they didn't even pay for. You can keep saying you didn't blame / call Mori a thief until you are blue in the face, the way you worded your replies to her show differently. You were very adamant they did something wrong.
The issue of character theft is a huge deal, because it can smear the name of the person accused, when they were not at fault. For all the time Mori was unable to be online, Pillow smeared their name in the mud, putting the idea that Mori is a character thief in the minds of those who they told, and whomever those people told, because you know gossip travels faster than facts. And rather than apologize for the trouble Mori went through, you placed blame on her as well, which was unfair. Because you didn't care to figure out what actually had happen. You just said it happened, case closed, don't let it happen again. How can you be a mod when you one-sidedly close down something without even trying to figure out the truth.
Because Mori wants this issue to be closed and done, this will be the last thing I say about this, but Fox, you did your job as an admin incredibly poorly and you should learn from this and try to be better. Because the original owner of that character would have had nothing to worry about if you had done your job and listened and then showed them that Mori had no intention of stealing, and had every intention of paying for the character.
And Mori, again, I am so sorry this happened to you.
Ariicchi I literally just posted something up above apologizing for if it came off that way and that it was not meant that way. The fact that you and them feel the need to try and say that you think you know what I'm saying when I am setting out what I have said point by point and ignoring what i have said, is really ridiculous. I never, not once. Called mori a theif. At all. That and the fact that you continue to believe i purposely did so in saying what I said is also ridiculous.
I knew what had happened which is why again- I said "either way, it happened." Because it was something that had already happened and no one could have anything done about it. I never put blame on them or insinuated blame. If they percieved it that way- i had apologized up above. What i said was rushed. It was that they need to make sure they are clear and know what they are doing in the future. Next time they intend to co own they should make sure they state it hasnt been bought yet and make sure that the person isnt just assuming that they already own it. All of the parties involved are not free of blame. Everyone miscommunicated. Pillow, Mori, the Seller and myself included for rushing what I said. I did care, thats why i came to them instead of letting the person who was selling continue to try and resolve it themselves. Them saying they wanted to show a conversation was not heeded because AS I SAID ABOVE there was never a question or investigation in question for the issue. It was never a matter of them being a theif or stealing. Staff never pursued that. The people who said that were pillow and the seller. Not staff. Not myself. They were not banned from the amino, they were not told they would be kicked for theft. And the person again who kicked(not permanent) them on discord is facing the consequences and has been suspended.
I was SIMPLY TELLING them that the seller would be pulling out of the trade because mori had not paid and they were worried about potential theft because of the proof image being posted by pillow. I was in no way shape or form intentionally calling them a thief, telling them they had stolen, or placing blame on them. And again, if it came out that way, it was 100% unintentional
Ariicchi Taken from a previous post of mine because you say their name was smeared in the mud. "Pillow never said anything to anyone but mori and the person selling the design. They did not tell anyone else that mori was a theif or anything and we had no reports of mori being called a theft so they WERE NOT as they stated in the post, being framed by pillow or anything. Pillow did not go out of their way to tell people these things. " Mori was not labeled as a character thief. As I said before. Only two people claimed they had stolen. That was pillow and the seller.
I do think that this needs to kind of stop here. I'm not a mod, I'm not an admin, but I think anyone who looks at this would think it's getting far too aggressive/argumentative. Fox apologized, Mori is off of Sno's ban list and largely welcomed into the community. It is up to Mori on all parts to accept the apology, the removal, and the welcome back. If she doesn't want to then she doesn't. We're making semantics arguments back and forth on a situation where all sides showed severe miscommunication. Intent does matter here, and we're kind of beating a bush in debating it over word choice. Fox has said he was in a severe rush, remember that Mori had time issues too. His choice of words should be given the benefit of the doubt as much as her time conflict when she didn't have access to her phone.
TL;DR This is carrying on too long merely for choice of words :/