Trill Customs: Reassociation // OPEN

Kira asked: ”Kiss, Marry, Get Drunk with: Worf, Captain Sisko, Damar”

Now I know it’s just a silly game, but it got me thinking.

That ask was… a rather difficult one to answer. Part of me still loves Worf, but I know it would not be a good idea to resume a relationship with him. I don’t think he wants that and I would be exiled from Trill and Dax would never receive another host again. It would be a very dishonourable thing - even if Worf wanted it, he would see that and probably decline after thinking it over. I may not entirely agree with Trill laws regarding re-association, but I do understand why they exist. It’s a very selfish thing to do. Now that I have a symbiont, I must look to take care of it. If my body is destroyed in battle or an accident, that’s one thing, but if I choose willingly to end Dax’s life and prevent its chance from accumulating more knowledge in subsequent life spans, that’s an entirely different matter. It’s not one Curzon, Jadzia, or even I, at first, regarded very well due to the unfairness at keeping apart two people who loved each other very much, especially if one was suddenly taken from the other under very tragic circumstances. I must admit that I am still on the fence about the issue, myself, though not as sure as Curzon or Jadzia were.

Merida Kax

The laws on re-association may seem very harsh and the punishment is extreme but they exist for a reason. The symbiont needs to gain new knowledge and experience with it's successive hosts how is it meant to do that if the next host re-enters the same relationship as the previous host.

Now image for example if two Joined Trill entered a strong relationship with each other and when they die they continue the relationship through to their next hosts. Now imagine if they keep on doing this every time one of them dies. The symbiont would never gain any other experiences outside of that one  relationship, it would be stuck in a state of stagnation. That is why re-association is illegal.

Ezri Dax

I understand, but I wonder why the symbiont cannot make the choice itself. There could always be a choice to re-locate with your spouse or to eventually part ways. It’s hard to tell whether or not that would be a bad thing since I don’t recall many examples of that ever occurring. My point is that there is no real way to tell. With some, it may prove detrimental, but with others, it may be functional, just like with any circumstance in life, really. It depends on who wields it and how they view the situation.

With a non-joined Trill or a member of a short-lived species, like humans and Bajorans, however, it’s harder to ignore the prolonged happiness one could have with them in favor of a law, when after they have died, the symbiont could form an attatchment to another.

Merida Kax

Well there are many ways it could be a bad thing,

 

1. It’s seems like a waste of a symbiont anyway if they are not going to gain any new experiences from new relationships.
2. It could lead to a concentration of power or wealth  in the society. With that wealth and power being passed along the same  two spouses, like feudal lords.
3. It also to much of a risk and could open up all kinds of other issues.

They will see their former partner in their  symbiont’s new host, even when they might be very different people. They  would love them for who they used to be and not who they are now. When a  partner dies it’s best to accept that, move on rather and remember the  good times rather then trying to bring them back.

Ezri Dax

1. I still think that the hosts could have new experiences and learn new things together. Isn’t that what one lifetime is about already? And how is it so different or wronger from any other near-immortal species? Sure, they wouldn’t have completely different lives, but are the symbionts really missing out on more by being apart? I still think that our society has not addressed that important question very well. I think there has been too little allowed discussion on this difficult topic.

2. This point I can’t dispute. The only thing I would say is that this already is kind of true of joined Trill in general. Already, non-joined Trill sometimes feel like second-class citizens and who can blame them when a joined Trill has a greater depth of knowledge and experience to draw upon.

3. Could you be more specific: what other kinds of risks and issues do you mean?

Merida Kax

1. New experiences will be limited when both still have the mindsets of their past hosts. This would essentially almost be like going back to being a previous host, as both till would see and think of the other as being their past lover, they would be stuck in a time warp. What separates a symbiont from other near-immortal species is that they can gain rich knowledge from many different lives and not just one.

They would be missing out on a lot more if aloud to reassociate after all love is just an emotion and like any emotion is best experienced from different angles and perspectives. I mean after all would you trade all the experiences that you have gained from you past lovers just to stay with one person forever, I certainly know I wouldn't. Maybe that's just me speaking as a person who find the idea of being chained to one relationship forever unbearable or maybe I'm thinking as all Joined Trill should.

After all many of my past hosts have been married and have had wonderful relationships. They were good while they lasted but all good things must come to an end and if anyone of them came to me now and asked me to rekindle that relationship I would refuse them without a seconds thought.

2. The unjoined trill are unjoined for a reason and this is because they are inferior not physically or mentally able to take on a symbiont. The rigorous testing that the Symbiosis Commission puts eligible hosts through is to make sure that only Trill who are capable of being joined are joined.

We are hardly feudal lords we earn our right to be joined not through noble bloodlines. If reassociation was legal though then some might end up being like feudal lords and we want to avoid that especially as the unjoined are already as paranoid as they are. It's not our fault that most other Trill are not eligible hosts and besides it's only one advantage, other then that we are all the same.

3. I don't know exactly but there could be a great risk of changing our society on a deeper level then you might think. It may even cause stagnation of ideas and thought.

4. The other reason is it a weakness as Joined Trill we try to rise above such weaknesses and resist urges from our passed lives. We must not let ourselves be chained by our passed lives but instead allow them to enrich us. Committing reassociation shows a weaknesses of will. Why go through all the metal and physical training to be joined if you going to fail on the last final test? Of course you were never prepared to be joined. You never had to go through all the rigorous training required, perhaps that is why you do not understand.

Ezri Dax

1)

You make a very valid point. I do think that Joined Trill should and would seek out new opportunities and experience love from different angles and perspectives, but I think the manner of loving and who someone should love should ultimately be a free choice. If continuing to love someone into another cycle is a mental chain, then the hosts should split naturally. It’s up to them to determine if that is the case. If they naturally want to move on and seek out other relationships, then so be it. Other species do this, too. Otherwise, I maintain that reassociated Trill can still have enriching lives and new experiences and not be stuck in a ‘time warp’.

When I saw Lenara again, and Worf, I could not stop loving them. Saying love is ‘just an emotion’ deeply denies its purpose and presence in our lives. Though actively not thinking about it, my love for Lenara and Worf still shapes me, is still alive in my heart. I can’t change that anymore than I can change having spots. I think the law creates a deep denial about our natures. As Joined Trill, our pasts are subsumed unlike that any other species. The feelings and sensations are still actively alive within us and I believe we should follow them wherever they lead and put more faith in ourselves to make choices that will not lead to self destruction as with anything else.

Also consider this: there is no law that prevents a Joined Trill from reassociation with close friends or a career. Some stay in the same career, like I’ve done with Starfleet. But I naturally do not want to stay on the same path as Jadzia. I have my own will and aspirations. I took up counseling instead. What I’m trying to say is how is this different from loving a person and how come this can be a free choice but not falling in love? For a lot of individuals, careers and close friends can mean as much as family and lovers. Ben Sisko has been my friend for three lifetimes now and I would never in a million years consider that to be a weakness. We’ve made a great team and triumphed over many odds and hardships together.

And I have freely chosen to be a Counselor when I could have applied to be a Science Officer. And that is because something in me naturally doesn’t want to follow the same path. I naturally choose to not stagnate myself in my career. But I’m not a perfect Joined Trill - nobody is. We all stagnate ourselves in other ways. I’m just saying that I believe that we already do and in ways that are on par with romance.

A new host naturally changes the composition of the joined Trill and thus I think some will naturally choose to experience new relationships, law or no law. If our society did change, who is to say it would be for better or for worse? If worse, then we will correct it or we will perish as with all things.

(2)

I did not mean to imply that we are feudal lords. I said “Already, non-joined Trill sometimes feel like second-class citizens and who can blame them when a joined Trill has a greater depth of knowledge and experience to draw upon.” A solution to this would be to allow the Unjoined ample representation in government. As long as they have a voice and are treated with respect and dignity and their knowledge fostered by Joined Trill, I see our society having the potential to close the gap. For the majority, Joined Trill do, but some are quite arrogant and this has caused the friction that pervades our society.

I agree on the purpose of the Commission, but not that the unjoined are mentally inferior. My previous host, Jadzia, was washed out, but then re-applied.

It’s a very large advantage, though.

(4)

I have the Dax symbiont and I have the past lives’ memories, so I do remember all of their trainings and I do understand. As I’ve said above, I don’t think continuing to love someone is a weakness. Using that as an excuse to not go forward in your life is a weakness, but wanting to stay with someone purely out of love is not. I still maintain that one can still have new experiences and perspectives.

I think the weakness is that we have to have this law in the first place. Having it says that we do not have the mental maturity to take on the responsibility that comes with reassociating such as continuing to seek out new experiences rather than stagnating and to not assert political and monetary dominance.

(( Apparently there is a comic that deals with Ezri being kidnapped by Verad (the guy from “Invasive Procedures”) and it explores the rift between Joined and Unjoined Trill, but I have not read it and thus don’t know what position Ezri really has on that issue. I think she ends up defending the status quo, but something tells me there is more to it. Dax seems likely to walk the line between the old order and a new way of things and I’m trying to do the best I can to reflect this. Trill culture still boggles me somewhat. ))

Merida Kax

1. Love is one of the strongest emotions and great loves from our past hosts will always live within and shape us. That is exactly why we should control it. Allow past loves to remain part of us, keeping those memoires alive but without trying to relive them. Proving that we are strong enough to make that past love a part of us without it taking over. Those who reassociate are showing that they can’t integrate their past feelings of love without acting on them and maybe even proving that they were not strong enough to be joined in the first place.

But then maybe there should be a rite of closure for couples whose former host’s relationship had been separated by death. This might discourage even more from committing reassociation.

Staying with the same friends and career is very different from staying with the same lover. You can change the path in your career, as you have done by going into counselling rather than being a science officer.

As for friendship, one can have many friends at the same time so you can still keep old friends and gain new ones. This is not the same with lovers, if you were married to a husband or wife from a previous life then you are going to want to spend your time with them. You would not want to seek out new loves and new relationships. A way to get round this could be to enforce open marriages and open relationships for those who reassociate and have a set amount of time that they could be with each other. Even this though might be too risky.

2. I agree that Unjoined should get a greater role in government but how much power can they really be given?

As for Jadzia being washed out, even the Commission is not perfect and they too can make mistakes that was one example were a mistake was made. For the most part the Commission has the right idea and most unjoined are simply not capable of being joined. If there was a way for everybody to be joined then I’m sure we would take it, but there isn’t and the unjoined should simply expect that.

A large advantage, like large advantage the someone who is very intelligent has over lesser minds. Being joined is much the same especially as those who joined were capable of being joined and those who are not, are not.

4. There is a difference between continuing to love someone and acting on that love. It is practically impossible to stop loving someone all together, especially someone who was taken from you or you were taken from all to soon. I have too been tempted to go back with a love from a previous host before, but we both resisted in the end and I believe that we were both much stronger for it.

Ezri Dax

I don’t see that it makes you stronger for resisting. I don’t see that there is anything wrong in continuing to love someone from another lifetime and having the option to freely choose to do so. I don’t think that makes me or anyone else weak-minded. Again, what I think defines a weak mind is someone who cannot control the urge to escape into the past, use it as a sort of shelter. To some extent, we need laws to regulate how we interact, but I believe that this issue is too personal and too subjective to agree upon a law for. Everyone feels differently. One person may not wish to reassociate and another may. I simply argue for there to be a choice in the matter and greater discussion of this topic in academia and government in the first place.

I do not think that unjoined Trill have weaker or less-developed minds. Yes, they have fewer experiences, but they are still just as capable in many ways. I don’t see why they can’t have equal representation in politics at all. All the more reason for them to if they are disadvantaged. But I feel as though this outlook can be rectified through better mentorship between the joined and unjoined. And then, I think they have the right to be treated as equals. Both of us have forgotten to mention that part of the reason the vast majority of Trill are unjoined is simply that there aren’t that many symbionts to go around, not just because some are unsuited for it. Also, I trust the Commission and I’m not saying it’s perfect or that it has to be.

I still maintain that I think there should be a greater effort to keep Unjoined and Joined Trill on the same page without holding back Joined Trill. I don’t know exactly how to do this other than the two ways I pointed out already - greater mentorship, greater representation in government - but I am sure we can think of something. There’s been some rumblings of unrest lately on our home world. We can put a stop to it before it gets out of hand and I believe these two options are a good start.

And I believe this issue and the issue of reassociation are two sides of the same coin: a society deeply in denial about the differences between Joined and Unjoined Trill and one which seeks to suppress and call any dissension a “weakness of will” rather than doing the opposite and allowing for an ultimate test of will - freedom of choice - and the ultimate allowance of it to even take place - the right of representation. I maintain that freedom will work itself out. Either way, our society will learn to shift back toward the middle if we are to preserve ourselves. Survival of one’s species - not just physically, but morally, spiritually, intellectually, and so forth - is possibly the strongest motive there is; I am optimistic. And you know, that is a base emotion, too. But it can be wielded positively to keep a society from being defeated or torn apart by giving in to it. It just depends on the balance of immersion and self control. But both are needed to be successful. With pure self-control, sometimes you are not able to act quickly enough. You get caught up in too much cerebral reaction. You are not as fluid in the sense of being open to innovation through spontaneity A type of stagnation. With a balance of the two, there’s a little more room for blind error but the tradeoff can be worth it. I’m starting to diverge, but my point is, it’s rather arbitrary to focus on controlling love with a law and not every other emotion.

The only real power this law has is that it’s shaped our society in one way and we are used to it. Otherwise, I know people who continue to question it, some that even have committed it. Others that have wanted to but the only thing keeping them back is that they don’t want to effectively murder the symbiont. I’m just saying that it seems hollow and perhaps there’s a better way to merge interests. Or at least we can try to open up discussion about it. I believe there should never be a prevention of asking tough questions. With positive mentorship, openness, and compassion, we can keep our society from splintering.

Merida Kax

Isn’t that what those who commit reassociation do? Try and escape into a past relationship that has ended long ago. Fooling themselves into thinking that it be the same again and that they can relive the memories that they once had.

Yes I was stronger for resisting, we both were. We could have easily resurrected a relationship that was between our past hosts but we were strong enough to resist. That relationship had ended long ago and while the relationship had ended suddenly and tragically it still ended. So we realised that we had to move on, that relationship was part of our past lives and could not be rekindled. We were stronger through realising that though, there is no point in trying to bring back a relationship between past hosts, the only thing you should do is move on. We did the correct thing and are better off for doing so.

Do you do mean better mentorship between potential hosts and Joined Trill mentors? If so then don’t you think that as there are only a limited amount of available symbionts to go around and that only so many Trill can be joined, that mentorship as it stands is fine. I mean it’s another way to weed out unsuitable candidates so the symbionts can go to those who truly deserve them.

Unrest?! on Trill!? Where on Trill has this started and why haven’t the government put in place measures to crush stop this potential uprising. Still you might be right about the need for reforms on the status of the unjoined in our society and giving them more representation in government.

The is a rule focused only on the emotion of love only for many of the reasons I have already mentioned before “…This is not the same with lovers, if you were married to a husband or wife from a previous life then you are going to want to spend your time with them. You would not want to seek out new loves and new relationships”. There is no danger of our species becoming extinct anyway, remember we have had warp capability since our antiquity, while some of the now major species of the galaxy were still banging rocks together and besides we have survived worse.

I agree that there has to be balance between immersion in pleasure and self control but I think in many ways we already have that.

Ezri Dax

No, not necessarily. Escaping into the past would be settling for that person, for whatever reason, when part of you feels like you want to move on. Not should. Want. Why not allow the joined host to eventually move on when they are ready to? Then, they will experience a new relationship. It just may take longer. If the spouse doesn’t want to continue the marriage because the symbiont changed hosts, that’s one thing. But if two people mutually wish to be together because they simply love each other that much… no, I don’t think that’s being weak. I don’t think it’s fooling yourself, either. I think it is simply an extension of what has been there.

You are telling me you realised something and that you were stronger for it, but I do not know what that thing was. Did you resist because you’ve been told that’s what’s expected or did you examine the possibility of re-association closely, regardless of the consequences of the law? (I’m not saying the law is unimportant. I’m just saying as a thought experiment. Thinking what if society was different and this law did not yet exist. Did you put yourself in that perspective and try to analyse the issue from that neutral point, trying to weigh the pros and cons of reassociation based solely on the theoretical merit?)

I will clarify - I did not mean better mentorship between potential hosts and Joined Trill. I, too, believe the way it stands today is fine. I meant between Joined and Unjoined Trill. In careers, in politics, anything. I’d like to see a better academic and professional mentorship in order to help Unjoined Trill be able to be on par with their Joined colleagues and help bridge the schism and help abate the unrest I talked about. I believe the unrest should be addressed positively and I believe this is one good way to go about it. Again, for this I believe there needs to be more representation in government for the Unjoined and more open political and academic discussion about these issues. I’m glad you agree that there needs to be more reforms.

I hate to sound self-serving, using myself as an example, but, honestly, do you think that I didn’t deserve the symbiont? And yet I am Joined. I do not like feeling as though I was ‘unworthy’ or ‘undeserving’. Perhaps I was. But what does that matter for me - or for anyone who’s been an emergency hoest - when I have a stable career on DS9, good friendships, excellent academic and professional citations? I speak for anyone who has been an emergency host and for the Unjoined that I believe are worthy but aren’t able to receive a symbiont because there just aren’t that many to go around. My point is that I think those words are arrogant. I think there needs to be less arrogance amongst some of the Joined Trill in our government, especially I will name no names, of course… but I think you know of whom I allude to. No wonder there is unrest on Trill. It’s right that someone who’s had more experience should be a leader in society, but it doesn’t mean that they should set themselves above the rest and lose the ability to be compassionate.

Thank you for these lively discussions, Merida. I may disagree with you, but I enjoy a good debate. You may prove to be right about Reassociation. It certainly helps me to hear your perspective. Perhaps when we both have the opportunity to return to Trill, we can work together in bringing about some of the reforms we mentioned. I would like that very much.

Merida Kax

We where stronger for realising that it was better for us to move on and experience other relationships. We resisted both because it is what is expected and because we re-examined the effects re-association would have outside of the law. We both wanted to reassociate at the time but in a way the law helped us to re-examine what were thinking of doing from a bigger picture.

So do you want Joined Trill to have to shadow Unjoined Trill or take them as apprentices? There are more Unjoined then there are Joined, so how many do you think one Joined Trill should mentor? And for how long?

You might have been unworthy at first, as you did not go through the preparation and testing that most Joined Trill go through, but you were joined as an emergency host and you seemed to have coped well with it, so you shouldn’t ask now whether you are worthy or not as it doesn’t matter any more.

I enjoy a good debate as well and it’s good to hear you views on Trill society and it’s good that we both understand that reform is needed.