Debates & Discussion Between Merida Kax & Ezri Dax

Merida Kax

Ezri Dax

I believe that they are powerful aliens and that, to some extent, they do care for Bajor and try to guide its people. But, curiously, is that not the definition of a god? It has sounded as if it is the religious superstition you take issue with, really. Believing in a god and religious superstition do not necessarily go hand in hand. Some take it that way and others do not.

Merida Kax

But worshipping aliens as a gods makes you a slave to a symbol and a belief created by ignorance. How can you be free when you ask some ‘wormhole’ alien what you should do?

The worse thing is that I found out from you that Jadzia a Joined Trill someone I though would have had a strong mind and be able to overcome such nonsense kneeled to their non existent power and proved herself to be devoid of willpower.

Ezri Dax

I disagree. She believed in them as I believe in them now. She just decided to open her heart and mind to see them as the Bajorans did. And even so, I disagree that it makes a person have a weak mind and “devoid of willpower” just because, for a moment, she looked at them in a way that was not purely scientific. That is the essence of an open mind. Why do you say these things? How does believing in a god or gods prove that you are devoid of willpower? I can see how you might think they’d have a weak mind, but it’s not like people who believe in spiritual beings allow themselves to be controlled by them. As I said, some do, but some do not. Some hold their own and believe they are the shaper of their own destines, but that their god or gods are like guides. Prophets. Prophets aren’t religious dictators, they are guides.

Merida Kax

How can you look at aliens in a wormhole as anything more than aliens in a wormhole. That is the essence of an weak mind corrupted by ignorance and lies.

What I meant was Jadzia was devoid of willpower for being converted to the belief in these wormhole aliens if she had a strong will she would have resisted. Only a weak mind needs religious guides to life I would rather take life as it is, as nothing exist but life.

Ezri Dax

I did not say she was converted - only that she opened her mind to a possibility. She allowed both views to coexist in her mind. I do admire your position, but any mind needs guidelines every now and then. Religious guides or guidelines - it makes no difference except, simply, that the former has preached the latter to the letter (if they are a true guide).

Merida Kax

I thought you said she made a leap of faith that sounds a little stronger than opening your mind. Something of her own persuasion must of weakened to be son influenced by these ignorant beliefs. I need no guidance from any higher power I am truly free from belief and thus stronger. The only strong guidelines are the ones we make ourselves.

Ezri Dax

Opening up her mind to considering the wormhole aliens as Prophets is a leap of faith for one who has been entrenched in the scientific method all of her life (symbiont included) is what I meant. One can still follow a religion and make their own guidelines.

Merida Kax

More like a fall of ignorance, how could these wormhole aliens be anything more than that? It is impossible, Lies! She showed that she has no willpower or had lost all her willpower to myth and lies. How can you follow you’re own guidelines when they are influenced by wormhole god aliens? When you have to kneel down and ask them for guidance?

I am stronger I would never kneel to some wormhole aliens, I would never worship some creation of ignorance. I would challenge the heavens, hells and the power of faith. Nothing is stronger than my disbelief.

(like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6m0KJIHfJg).

Ezri Dax

I think you need to relax. There’s nothing wrong in exploring and keeping an open mind. Even if it’s the “wrong” answer, making mistakes and questioning convention is just as much a part of how acquire wisdom as practicing convention, is it not? In fact, I daresay moreso.

As I’ve said, I believe - and Jadzia did as well - that there isn’t anything that can’t be explained by science. I believe there’s an explanation for the wormhole aliens’ powerful abilities that doesn’t fit conventional scientiic thought of our time, but we may yet achieve the necessary level of understanding. Jadzia believed that they could use this power to directly affect the lives of individuals and I myself have seen individuals hone telepathic, psychokinetic, and other sensory abilities to affect significant changes for good or evil in other being. She really wanted to have a baby with Worf and prayed that the wormhole aliens would be able to assist in granting that. She was grateful to both them and Dr. Bashir for finding a solution to making her fertility viable to a Klingon-Trill germination. She could not be completely sure if the wormhole aliens really had a hand in it or not, but she wanted to thank them for at least listening to her request. Unfortunately, she was murdered by a Cardassian named Gul Dukat when she went to go pay her respects.

I do respect your position. There have been far too many large-scale evils that have come out of religious superstition or someone’s interpretation of doctrine. But I maintain that the evils come from a desire to achieve ultimate purity, from intolerance, and from having selfish disdain for the beliefs of others. Religion is not the root evil or cause but the tool used to bring these desires to fruition. Anyone, religious or atheist, can be considered dangerous of they express those desires to a considerable degree. Not at all implying that you are, however… But all the same, I hope you’re not going to go trying to challenging spiritual beings of various cultures to bring about the end of the world to test your theory. ;)

(( ooooh she’s a cheeky one! And this looks like a good film. For its time, that was a pretty powerful manifesto in those few lines. I’ll put it on my list. I only speak a little Portuguese, though, so I stumbled on a link with the whole movie and English subtitles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeSRATuD0-4. ))

Merida Kax

I have know of the problems we Trill have in reproducing with other races but still wormhole aliens had nothing to with the solution you’re talking about, advancements in medical science did. It’s like thanking ‘gods’ for the invention of the plasma coil because someone prayed for it or the warp drive. Only a weak and superstitious mind would believe that they had a direct hand in it, it’s the power of our knowledge not the non-existent power of wormhole beings. And look what her weaknesses got her …. death, if she hadn’t have been influenced by superstitious thinking she probably would be still alive. Only the weak would convince themselves with such false proof!

Why shouldn’t I challenge such beliefs it seems that nobody else will. I don’t know about the end of the world but I would definitely challenge the power of the prophets, pah-wraiths, faith and any other superstition that have remained static since the beginning of time and if that means challenging them to bring upon the end of the world then so be it.

((Yes it’s a good film I have it on DVD as well as it’s two sequels, I’ve seen all of the Coffin Joe Trilogy.))

Ezri Dax

I’m not going to say you’re wrong. Only that there is some way to explain both perspectives, as I mentioned in my last entry. That may be so, but Jadzia’s death wasn’t a direct result of her beliefs. Her death was due to a chance encounter. She just happened to be in the temple alone when and intruder beamed in off of a cloaked ship and used the power of one of the Pah Wraiths to kill her. Dr. Bashir could not determine the precise cause of death.

I think you’ve every right to challenge beliefs, I just meant it as a joke about playing with fire and tempting fate.

Merida Kax

Is she hadn’t have had those beliefs she wouldn’t have been in the temple to be killed, if she had resisted their superstitions instead of bowing to them she wouldn’t have died. Of course he couldn’t determine the course of her death because the Pah Wraiths are a myth just like the Prophets. Something else must of killed her other then some untrue forces! Which come from a twisted imagination that has remained static since the beginning of time!

Ezri Dax

I didn’t mean the spiritual context when I said Pah Wraith. You can think of it as a wormhole alien, if you’d like. They once lived there, but do not anymore, hence why I simply refer to them as Pah Wraiths.

While I don’t believe that belief in a god or gods or spiritual guides comes from a ‘twisted’ imagination, thought it is hard to argue that in some cases of the occult, I do believe most share the static nature. It’s good to be grounded in rules to conduct one’s behaviour but I, too, share the same feelings when it comes to tradition. Then again, I’ve never been one to celebrate many traditions, but some are nice and bring a sense of purpose - a reminder of what it feels like to be part of a larger community. That’s what the true heart of religion is. That’s why religion and structure are important. I guess instead of religion, however, I feel that way about Starfleet. No, I don’t worship Starfleet, per se. I try to keep an open mind, but at the same time, I fall back on Starfleet principles to guide me when I’m in a bind. I’m more one for following instinct, but there have been times I wish I had stuck to principles Eh, the best you can do is try to strike a balance. Maintaining balance is the key to everything. The wisest spiritual practices I’ve encountered have stressed that: Vulcan meditation and the human spiritual practices known as yoga and Buddhism.

There are times I walk around and I can’t help but wonder if god or a spiritual entity isn’t the almighty creator but is within ourselves and can only be known during rare moments of our lives when we reach a state of harmony in mind, thought, and body, or when we witness perfect moments of life and the universe. We transcend beyond the mundane and come to a higher level of thinking. Each of us, no matter our intelligence level, can reach this state and there is a wisdom in it far beyond the mere measure of IQ. Q… I wonder what Q would say to all of this. Probably that I’m babbling again.

Merida Kax

If the ‘Pah Wraiths’ don’t live in the wormhole where do they live? What would I call them instead of anti wormhole aliens or something?

See a community like Starfleet can take the place of religion and faith. Law and society can create structure in even better than religion can. What structure can the wormhole aliens give people apart from one based on illusions. In sometimes instinct is stronger than reason so I agree about trusting in your instincts. I act impulsively quite a lot and sometimes it’s helped me but other times I’ve done ridiculous and stupid things because of it.

((On an unrelated note one of Merida’s former hosts Darzen Kax was a professor but also murdering sadist who believed strongly that instinct was higher than love, religion, law and reason. In order to prove that, he had a rival professor and some of his students round his house and had them tortured and starved.

Most of if not all of his memories have been suppressed but unlike Joran it was because his theories were considered too dangerous and because sadistic nature of his acts rather then not being the wrong choice of host. Based on/ripped off of professor Oãxiac Odéz from The Strange World of Coffin Joe.

I don’t know why mentioned this it just came to mind when you were talking about instinct and reason. Anyway none of this debate would be strong enough to cause the memory block to break like Dax’s did in Equilibrium or anything like that.))

As Joined Trill do we really need any spirituality we live on through our Symbionts and this is another reason why I think Jadzia was weak for praying to the Wormhole aliens. Surely the collective memories is enough to guide us rather than praying to some wormhole beings that are empowered by ignorance.

Also about achieving that sate no matter our intelligence level I bet you I can find some people who are either too hateful or too ignorant and stupid to achieve any real understanding let alone a ‘higher’ one.

Ezri Dax

They are confined to the Fire Caves of Bajor, and that would certainly be an appropriate term, if a bit mundane.

Well I had never said that a community like Starfleet couldn’t take the place of religion and faith and create structure better than religion could. Since religions are still widely held confined to a single planet in the Federation, I can see your point. But to argue technically, if you look at things on a larger scale, it’s not much different. On a larger scale, the Federation, Klingon Empire, Romulan Star Empire, Ferengi alliance, and Cardassian Union may as well be replaced with the titles Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, and Buddhism because each hold fundamental values and differences between those values, just like religions do. Each argue for why their way is superior, just like religions tend to do. *Shrug* I don’t really see a big difference except on scaling and that turns out to be a non-issue as it’s just a multiplying factor.

Collective memories may make us wiser, but they’re not enough to make us feel complete. One way or another, our minds begin to recognise that if not faith in something more than yourself, at least there needs to be an empathic social bond to share those memories. Arrogance, like any other weakness of mind, would destroy ourselves eventually, one way or another.

With enough patience, practice and time, unless they have a degenerative mental disorder, then I believe they can. If they aren’t smart, they can learn. If they are ignorant, they can learn. If they are hateful, they can learn. All in respective ways to fill those gaps.

Practices like yoga help to heal the body, mind, and spirit. Simulating certain muscle groups, stretches and relieves tension, allowing oxygen to flow to any damaged tissue or tissue on its way to being damage by receiving a poor blood supply and stimulates tissue regeneration. This begins to have a profound effect on the mind, lessening any damage caused by subconscious stress from these factors, helping us to be able to be in better moods and think clearly. Yoga in and of itself also teaches us to focus our minds in order to achieve balance in certain positions. Thus it teaches us self-control. All of this, if practiced often, can have a profound effect on one’s spirit: rejuvenation, energy, focus, clarity, and happiness, most of all, at feeling improved. Other things in life can achieve this state, but yoga is a successful and long-term approach. Thousands of years old, yet understands that medicine isn’t just about the body as individual organs, it’s about the mind, body, and spirit trifecta.

Merida Kax

So they’re cave aliens then. We’ve got the wormhole aliens and now cave aliens brilliant and they both worshipped I suppose?

Religions are based of falsities whereas governments and empires are built by us with laws we make and not some imaginary gods. I don’t know of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, and Buddhism are they earth religions, religions that only exist in your universe or religions from planets we’ve not encountered yet?

The Collective memories from my symbiont make fill complete I don’t need some wormhole alien or some cave alien to make me feel complete being joined make me complete.

I’ve met people in the wasteland who are so hateful and genocidal that I don’t think they could ever change like Frank Horrigan for instance or any of the enclave.

Ezri Dax

*Laughs* I guess you could call them the Platonic Wraiths. In fact I think that just about sums up our debate on religion. I fancy you as the philsopoher trying to convince even those of us who only keep an open mind about religion that we are seeing nothing of reality - merely shadows on the cave and that spiritual guides and religious figures are those shadows. But before you forever seal your judgement, let me take you on a tour of various religions and engage in conversation with practitioners.

Yes, they are Earth religions in my universe. None of those are practiced on Earth in your universe? What do they practice instead?

People like that suffer from extreme neurochemical imbalances and unless the imbalances are attempted to be corrected by natural, sustainable means, then there is no hope for them. You wouldn’t give up hope if your engines died would you? If you were in a desperate pinch. You’d scrounge for all the parts you needed, but in all the time and elbow grease you needed to fix them again. And you would eventually succed with the right equipment and patience. Should we hold more hope for inanimate objects than sentient life forms? True, there are more chaotic variables at stake, but I can’t dismiss that with the right treatments, someone can be rehabilitated. It will take a great effort, but if the outcome is positive, I’d say that it would be a tremendous victory and inspiration for others to follow.

Merida Kax

That would be interesting but I doubt any of them would be able to convince me to question my views. But I wouldn’t pass off the chance for a debate with them.

I think they might be practised on Earth I came across someone who I think was a Christian he’s an enemy of the Legion called Joshua Graham he was wrapped in bandages but heard he’s a Christian preacher or something. I was drunk at the time and made some drunken challenged for him to prove that his god exists. He told me that I don’t have to believe but he thinks I would suffer for not believing what ever that means.

((Merida hasn’t encountered Joshua Graham in the game it’s self though this was on Tumblr, it will be interesting when she does))

Do you really think you could give someone like Frank Horrigan or some of the fiends and raiders consulting to reform them? I think that’s very naive of you. The Enclave themselves attempted genocide on their on people.

Merida Kax

I would love to be there for that debate. It would be fascinating to watch. You are a fascinating woman.

No, not simply consulting them. With limited resources, what I propose I know is unrealistic, but in the Federation, we have the resources and staff available to rehabilitate people into becoming well-balanced and productive members of society. As personality is a sum of memories and habits, the therapy involved would require the subject to practice disassociation from previous harmful patterns of thought. As you can imagine, this process can take quite a while to reach a level where it is safe to let the subject back into society, for minor sentences. And that is only after various psychological examinations and safety checks are met. I’m not saying it’s realistic everywhere and for everyone. I’m just saying that it can be done. And it has had a powerful impact on convicts who really do want to straighten out but feel stuck in how to begin to sort themselves out.

Yes if I get to visit DS9, Bajor or where ever that would be a good opportunity.

I wasn’t saying that it can’t work for everybody but still there are some people like Frank who could never be rehabilitated he’s a programmed genetically enhanced killing machine. Or some of the fiends who take delight in killing, raping, raiding, torturing and destroying could they be rehabilitated? I understand petty criminals and people who have murdered under circumstances but genocidal maniacs and mass murderers not really.

Ezri Dax

I’d be hypocritical if I said we shouldn’t at least attempt it. I mean, before we had developed the rehabilitation programs we have today in the Federation, our individual societies once thought it was ludicrous and impossible. But if someone is imprisoned anyway, should they be left to rot in their cell or should the time be better spent applying to any sense of humanity in order to change themselves and atone. And if it doesn’t work, they have plenty of time to think it over until they are ready to try or they will just spend the rest of their lives without their freedom.

I am well aware that some individuals would try to take advantage of this system, but with the extensive psychological and medical examinations the Federation has in place, this is extremely rare. And before, with the Eugenics War, we hadn’t developed our technology to what it is today. Genetically modified human beings are outlawed in the Federation, so there is no data to support success rates in rehabilitating someone like Frank. I know it would be a heavy risk if someone like him could deceive his way past our examinations, like a sleeper agent. But, again, it would be unethical to refuse rehabilitation on any grounds that isolate groups of people. If it must be done, it should be on a case-by-case basis.

Of course some limits must be respected and there will be some times where a call must be made to pull a trigger rather than rehabilitate, but even if there are costs along the way, I don’t think that there should be any limit put on bringing medical to those who need it. Therapy is a recognised legitimate form of medical aid in the Federation; for many centuries it has required the attendance of medical school and internship training.

I’ve known someone who has killed many innocents, raped, tortured, and exploited others. I’ve begun to counsel this person and, so far, the progress is promising. And if you’re wondering, no, I won’t hesitate to shoot him if I see him step out of line.

Merida Kax

Yes if you capture and imprison someone I agree that it would be better to try and rehabilitate them. The wasteland of course is a very different place to the Federation and the Trill in my universe. It’s a place with very little law and what law there is is enforced very harshly whether that’s by the NCR hiring bounty hunters to track down outlaws or the Legion crucifying and enslaving their criminals. The Earth of my universe is no were near being like the Federation and probability never will be.

If was Frank Horrigan I would be more worried about capturing and keeping him locked up first he’s built like a tank and if captured he probably escape or worse. But than again that’s in the wastelands and the Federation and my Trill would have the technology to be able to take him in. I did ask Julian if he knew any thing about Horrigan and with Eugenics War in your universe anything like him was created. I think at some stage the history of Earth split in both our universes in mine Earth destroyed it’s self in a nuclear war but in your universe Earth avoided that.

Therapy is used in Trill as well in my universe and even in the wastelands there are some form of therapy provided by the follower’s of the apocalypse, don’t let the name fool you their a humanitarian group. I help someone who had been physiologically scared get some help with them.

It shows that consulting can be effective but are sure he won’t sink back into those behaviours but it’s good that you won’t turn your back to him shows your not naïve. What’s the name of this individual? by the way.

Ezri Dax

*Frowns* That’s awful to hear about Earth. In my Universe, due to the pacifist and care-taking nature of the symbionts, our culture grew up to be a lot more peaceful, forward thinking, and - rather than as soliders. I don’t mean to put that in an aristocratic way, either. Just a fact. With joining the Federation, we haven’t shifted very much toward a more warlike demeanor It took several decades of exchange, but we realised that the Federation espoused the same goals as our civilisation for the peace and enrichment of citizens. It’s just that that peace always comes with a necessary price. This was a good step for our civilisation, I think, and I think we were lucky that no one had yet tried to invade our world. Otherwise we could have easily ended up as the Bajorans have with respect to the Cardassian Occupation. Trill needed to branch out and lean more to adopt more of a militaristic stance in order to protect itself. Sounds like your past life Lorent did exactly that for your Trill - or did he try to take it further and colonise worlds? We have not done much of that as our population has been maintained by centuries of a thorough practice of sustainability - again a large part in thanks to the wisdom from Joined Trill.

What did Julian tell you about the Eugenics War?

Thank you for the compliment. I know that treatment is not always effective, but that doesn’t mean it should not be attempted. I can’t exactly say due to patient confidentiality, but it is someone I’ve known for a few years now.

Merida Kax

Lorent Kax did do exactly that for our Trill and we were better off for it. Although we could be quite militaristic before hence the death of Archus Kax, but never on the scale that Lorent Kax introduced and we never really had a real standing army until then. Before Lorent Kax’s reforms we had the Hoplite guard they were very skilled but loosely organized army which had ranks and command structure but not much training apart compared to the other powers. We were rarely involved in any war especially back then apart from one war in “Klach D’Kel Brakt” over a planet which was said to hold the secrete of immortality. I could tell about how we got involved and how it started but it’s quite a long story. It was the war Archus Kax died in though.

While we did take back some colonies we also colonised several uninhibited worlds and in fact Lorent had made two of these colonies great centres of art and trade. One looked out onto the Cardassian Union, Ferngi alliance and Bajor, the other looked out to the Klingon and Romulan empires. They were his windows on to the rest of the galaxy. He planned them very well too, the one closest to Cardassia was on a frozen planet and we used weather control network like the Risians had to bring it to a more suitable climate. A year after we took it back from the Tzenkethi coalition the Cardassians tried to take it off of us, so Lorent had the capital city and surrounding area evacuated.

The Cardassians walked in to an empty city then a few months later when they had gotten settled in, the weather control network was turned off and we let them freeze. Some of the local populace that couldn’t be evacuated were put into several hidden bunkers that had been built in case such an event like this would happen. There was transporter blocks put in place so they couldn’t beam out and then we called in the Trill Armada to deal with the Cardassian ships. It may seem unnecessary cruel by Federation standards but it was needed. Lorent wanted to show them that Trill could be just has harsh and that we wouldn’t go down without a long conflict.

Our actions might have been the cause of the collapse of the Tzenkethi coalition as we ended up destroying their army and making them surrender, but we didn’t actually take any of their planets only arrested their Autarch. Though when Cardassian Union took several of the Tzenkethi coalition’s planets we had to take some ourselves to make sure that they don’t invade through via that direction. While we were sure that we could hold against them in a war we didn’t want to be reckless or start a war either. It is now that the Cardassian Union is on the brink of collapse in my universe now especially with their withdraw from Bajor.