Fandom/Kins Rules Update Feedback Box

Posted 5 years, 1 month ago (Edited 5 years, 1 month ago) by admin
This will be left up for a few days so everyone can have a chance to get their thoughts in.

I'm currently reviewing a change in our fandom character ruleset in light of feedback regarding fandom characters. This was supposed to be a reply to the following thread, but I thought it'd be better to split it off into an official thread for better visibility: https://toyhou.se/~forums/14.suggestions-bugs/95652.-rules-edit-kin-characters-albums

To clarify, our current rules do not disallow upload of fan-characters as long as the canon permits derivative content, the characters are correctly credited, and all fanart is being used with permission. The reason being that up until now I haven't minded this platform being used for fandom RP. 

I'm up for changing the site rules if fandom characters are a nuisance, but just wanted to verify since there seems to be some confusion: do people want both canon characters and derivative characters banned, or just canon characters? Where these are defined as the following:

  • Canon characters:
    • EG: Re-uploading Naruto with no changes made to his design or history (usually includes GIFs and screenshots from the anime or copy pasted paragraphs from the character's wiki page)
  • Derivative characters:
    • Any characters derivative from canon content - this includes:
      • Explicit redesigns (eg. Naruto as a dog or furry)
      • Characters that're described as an OC or sona but resemble the canon character in both personality and appearance or cosplay them 24/7
      • Personalised playable MCs (eg. customised Kamui/Robin, Frisk, Gudako/Gudao)
      • Personalised pet site/game characters (eg. FlightRising dragons, Neopet/Subeta/ChickenSmoothie pets)
      • Characters belonging to a canon species (eg. pokemon OCs, LOZ OCs) 
      • Characters belonging to a canon setting (eg. BNHA/Hogwarts OCs that use the school uniform taken from canon designs)
    • This is quite a wide range, so if you have specific thoughts on what you find unacceptable or acceptable for a derivative character that'd also help with gauging the community's opinion for the new ruleset.
I won't be making this a poll; please do post if you have feedback even if you just want to add a +1 to banning one or both of the options. 


For people who would prefer not to post in thread but would still like some input, I've popped up a Google form where you can drop off your feedback: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeaQVmEpF1r8vAqEoHomYa7u_2cMcpoXWKBfhVDjpPWaNQwJg/viewform

LadyLatias

Straight up canon characters with no changes, as you describe in the OP—should not be allowed. 

Derivative characters—should be allowed. I don’t agree with people profiting off them through sales/trades, but just having them as personal characters for no profit shouldn’t be a big deal (if, as specified, they are from a canon that allows derivative content). It may get murky with particular individual OCs, true, but I am extremely uncomfortable with the idea of people policing my content and nitpicking if a character is or isn’t “original” enough.

I’ve seen people with very creative fan characters, unique takes on canon characters (mostly avatar-type characters of course, but even things like “here’s my take on a Nurse Joy!” or “this is a boss from a game in human form and here’s the AU of that story!”), or characters of canon species. To try and specify which of those is allowed or not is up to personal interpretation, and I wouldn’t trust others in the community to not report all of those, just because fan content is annoying to them. It would also make the rules very complicated and difficult for users to really understand what’s ok. 

Clarifying on canon characters I’m good with, and I think is much needed. But if the rules on fan characters get too much stricter, as some people have been describing, I can’t say I’d feel very comfortable hosting my characters or engaging with the community here.

InkMart

+1 on not allowing canon characters & art to be posted.

But definitely not supporting derivative characters being restricted since many are so unique and it's really subjective how "original" an oc is. There's a bit too much nuance to start regulating based on what a specific person believes is "original enough" or not.

(Minty-Fivestar's post above mine does a good job at explaining this.)

Kadrina

I didn't address moodboards in my previous post but doubling down on it. If you get the image from a free stock image site, I am fine with it but it has to be cited. Same for selling them, if the site allows commercial or private sales, great. If not, don't do it. It is theft. Really tired of people getting paid to steal images off of Google because it is Google. If it doesn't work for your middle school project, it shouldn't be allowed here.

Also using actors as reference is fine. Faceclaims is still theft of someone's images and the person's likeness. And I guarantee that most models/actors don't actually appreciate it.

Fvhn

Yes,  this iBrBz

Bottom line: I personally believe that ToyHouse should just start one step at a time. Start with focusing on straight up canon characters and see how that goes. If Fan Characters start to be a clearer issue. Then the topic should be revisited


srry idk how to blockquote one mobile 

Stormeko

Fan characters are fine! Kins or any character that's just a canon character turned to a different species should be banned

ParadiseLost

I support banning canon/kin characters, as well as blatant re-specieation of canon characters. This is wrong and should already be against the rules.

I do not support banning fan characters in general, which is what the list of derivative characters contains. I only support banning canon/kin characters and blatant re-specieation. I am not in support of things which will destroy actual creativity - only things which are plagiarism/not creative. Fan characters can be creative, and show appreciation for fandoms when they are. If that entire list is banned I will probably have to leave the site, frankly, as my creativity would be incredibly censored. Many of my characters are fan characters that add to the things I like.

Perhaps good wording would be "Creating characters which are kins of trademarked characters, canon characters with minimal differences, or the canon character themselves, are not allowed on Toyhou.se. (Insert consequences of doing so here.) Characters derivative of a fandom are allowed as long as the canon accepts derivative content, and they are properly labelled."

Snowz

+1 for banning straight-up canon characters, unless featured in media with ocs [like, gallery pics of DAI canon characters with player's Inquisitor? etc etc]

But everything else? Nah. I'm not feeling the hardcore policing of people's ocs.

Honestly some of my earliest ocs were ripoffs of some things. And if you'd slammed the hammer down and said "you can't do this!" I wouldn't be where I am.

Antimoany

I'm up for changing the site rules if fandom characters are a nuisance, but just wanted to verify since there seems to be some confusion: do people want both canon characters and derivative characters banned, or just canon characters? Where these are defined as the following:

Personally, I'm not sure anything should be banned merely for being a "nuisance". Perhaps you're understating "serious problem in the community" with that word, perhaps I'm just picking at linguistics, but someone else's behaviour being a mere nuisance to someone else should not necessitate the banning of anything.

With that said, onto the specifics:


  • Canon characters:
    • EG: Re-uploading Naruto with no changes made to his design or history (usually includes GIFs and screenshots from the anime or copy pasted paragraphs from the character's wiki page)

Straight-up ban. From what I understand these should already be against site rules ("don't upload art/characters you don't have permission to use"), but I'm all for re-writing those rules to make it crystal clear that the usage of any art or characters is automatically disallowed without direct permission from the creator. That's just common sense, both legally and morally (why do I seem to be throwing that phrase around so much lately?)

  • Derivative characters:

Should typically be permitted except for creators who have explicitly disallowed derivative works. Derivation has always been the right of the consumer of any media since literally the beginning of fiction, and directly contributes to more art (even Shakespeare did it). Art is inherently derivative but if someone outright says "don't derive from my work", they should probably make their way onto a DNP list. This applies to huge creators like DC and small creators like LiLaiRa.


    • explicit redesigns (eg. Naruto as a dog), 

A grey area, where referring to the creator's statement on derivation may be wise. I think there's a line here between "literally someone else's design tweaked as minimally as possible to fit under the derivation rules" and "a design inspired by someone else's work, clearly permissible under derivation rules". That sort of line is hard to draw and I leave it up to staff, but there is a line and I think it needs drawing.


    • characters that're described as an OC or sona but resemble the canon character in both personality and appearance or cosplay them 24/7

I think this fits into the same grey area as above.


    •  personalised playable MCs (eg. customised Kamui/Robin, Frisk, Gudako/Gudao), 

EDIT: This has been explained to me as customisable characters from games (mostly MMOs). Fits under "characters belonging to a canon species" for the most part, but for certain games, such as Mass Effect, the "customisation" is superficial and all possible interperetations of the character are equally canonical, pushing them closer to the "Naruto as a dog" section.


    • characters belonging to a canon species (eg. pokemon OCs, LOZ OCs), 

Should be permitted unless the creator has explicitly disallowed them. Pokémon being the obvious example, there are dozens of characters belonging to a single species, all with clearly distinct personalities. In many cases, design changes are minimal or even nonexistent. Ash's Pikachu, for example, is the generic Pikachu design. There's nothing special about the way it looks, its distinguishing feature is its overpowered Electric attacks. You can't see that just by looking at it.


    • characters belonging to a canon setting (eg. BNHA/Hogwarts OCs that use the school uniform taken from canon designs), etc.

The most classic example of derivative works in art, once again these should be permitted unless the creator says otherwise (and since JKRowling, at least, outright approves of derivation, Harry Potter fan-characters are very safe).


    • This is quite a wide range, so if you have specific thoughts on what you find unacceptable or acceptable for a derivative character that'd also help with gauging the community's opinion for the new ruleset.

Regardless of whether it's a fan-character, derived from canon content; regarldess of whether or not the character happens, by mere coincidence or by the facts of the canon (eg, Pikachu, as above): the uploading of literal "canon art", that is the uploading of art not created by the uploader, and which the uploader does not have express permission to use, should be blanket-banned if it isn't already.

Again there's a grey area here. Memes and image macros being the obvious example, but they slip neatly into the "public domain" and "share/share-alike" laws by the nature of how they're created and shared, so they should be safe as long as the rules are written clearly.


Itto

+1 to both banning Canon Characters and Canon Dogs. 

If I can look at a dog and know immediately what anime/show/manga/series they come from, they shouldn't be on ToyHouse. Don't understand why anyone would want to allow such blatant theft and uncreative designs on a website dedicated to original character storage and development ?

CatowlLatte

I agree with RedRareBit completely, honestly. 

Perfect explanation. 

WindWaken

+1 for what StrawberryLunala said

Trundlebug

+1 to MintyFiveStar. Policing derivatives just opens up a huge can of subjective bans waiting to happen. No one is going to like that.

Also, banning other people's creations should not be based on opinionated feelings... Just tbh. Some people hate anything fan made for their own reasons, but fan content that isn't outright theft or being used for shady purposes isn't hurting anyone. 

Jutta

+1 Canon characters

+1 Characters that purposely too closely resemble canon characters/explicit redesigns/deliberating making a canon character just a different species (such as the notorious Naruto as a dog and other similar characters)

-1 characters belonging to a canon species*

-1 fan characters from any franchises*

*Unless the creator has explicitly expressed that they do not allow these types of characters for private use 

-1 to customizable avatars from games and such, just credit the game like you’d credit a doll maker


Take things like inspiration case by case ! Many inspired characters end up as their own thing, as long as the personality and/or design aren’t too recognizable as the character they’re inspired by, it should be alright .